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You are here: Home --> Forum Home --> Brewing Forum --> Brewing Discussion --> banana ester strain?

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homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


About to run to the LHBS to pick up ingredients for my roggenbier. I'm planning to open ferment to help create a banana bomb; WLP300 is the yeast I'm looking at. If you have another strain suggestion (has to be White Labs), I'd love to hear it!




Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


I want to say the Wyeast version might be more banana heavy, but that doesn't help you, and I'm not sure that's even accurate.

Low pitch rate and open fermentation at higher temp with the Weihenstphaner hefe strain should get you what you want. The only hefe I've tasted with those parameters was a banana bomb.





Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


I was figuring on underpitching by20%, 25%, fermenting warm, and fermenting open.

I thought it was interested yesterday that /u/oldsock on reddit suggested overpitching and under aerating to get banana. His explanation was that cell growth inhibits ester production... which flies in the face of everything I thought was commonly accepted.

Any thoughts on that?




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


That is noted in the Bouldin book... But strain dependent. I think ferrulic + fermenter geometry + open ferment is the key. There was a great hefe preso at NHC 2015 that discussed and had great datapoints. They compared square/rectangle to bucket if I recalled. Essentially, larger surface area exposure increased banana esters, but combined with low dough in step mash.









Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


That whole growth suppressed esters thing is based on scientific theory and lab experimentation, not real world brewing. The metabolic pathways for growth and esters diverge from the same initial path so doing one takes away from the other (or something to that effect). In a lab environment this can be measured.

In actual brewing practice, other things seem to be involved which make the opposite true. Go figure.

As Matt said, I think strain dependence may also be involved.





Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


Thanks, guys. I was wondering if I had gone nuts.




Posted 34 days ago.

Necropaw
Charter Member
Central WI
608 Posts


I love that humans have been to the moon, can build structures thousands of feet long, bridges miles long, etc...but theres still a lot of things about brewing (which has been around for thousands of years) that we still cant figure out.

Its a beautiful thing.




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/presentations/pdf/2015/2015%20AHA%20In%20Pursuit%20of%20Perfection%20-%20Hefeweizen%20Project.pdf

That's the preso I attended. Personally, banana is a tricky thing. I want just a hint in a saison, but I prefer a balance of banana and clove in a hefe. Darker wiesse get complicated... because sweet seems to make the banana go to 11.

FWIW I have been "open fermenting" everything. Saisons and lagers. It seems to increase my predictability - things are finishing damned near my FFTs. That said - so hard to predict how the ester profiles end.

I should add, I really don't like hefe's in general. Especially American. Esters are just needed to balance with some spicy and acidity. Something insipid about a sweet hefe that makes me want to yack. I also DON'T like real bananas. Weird, I know.




Posted 34 days ago.

vinpaysdoc
Charter Member
High Point, NC
321 Posts


Yo, Matt C., any further word on the LoDo stuff? Rob seems impressed enough to stick with it for a while.




Posted 34 days ago.

Matt
Charter Member
Normal, IL
341 Posts


For what its worth, ive been sticking with it for pils and im really enjoying the beers.





Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


I am pretty positive on the LODO results. Having some problems getting out in the heat and brewing for a triangle.

I did do a spreadsheet over at the GBF for customizing the dosage. I am really (apparently) sensitive to sulfur - so finding the right dosage means a lot of trial and error. I can go below 50 ppm on my BrewMagic... double that for my GrainFather. At 100 ppm, not a fan. Doing some testing with BrewTan B coming up - after I do the triangle brewing.

Anecdotally - I took the last of my LODO Kolsch to a club meeting and had one of the biggest award winners (Keith Bradley) pull me aside and quiz me. I didn't mention the LODO. He is a serial decoction brewer - and was amazing I didn't decoct to get the malt character. It is in a competition - against him - will see how it does.

All this without the spunden...




Posted 34 days ago.

vinpaysdoc
Charter Member
High Point, NC
321 Posts


Yeah, my four competition beers will have some components of the LoDo stuff done. I'm boiling the water before using, putting in Na/K MBS right before dough in/sparge, underletting the mash/sparge, using minimal stirring, and I'm pitching a helluvalot of yeast to the Vienna today. It's not even close to what they recommend, but, it is well over the normal pitch rate for lagers. My copper chiller gets a StarSan soak for 30 minutes, but, I haven't looked for a stainless chiller yet......




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


Copper, meh. I think that falls into a longer aging period and stability issue. I haven't seen much difference, although I plan to buy a stainless CFC at some point. Bigger issue is chilling to pitch temps IMO. Ain't happening here - I measured our tap water at 87F at 9 am this morning.

So time to build an ice water chiller rig...




Posted 34 days ago.

Matt
Charter Member
Normal, IL
341 Posts


I'm spunding, and I can't (reliably) tell a difference between the spunded and non spunded batches. I also haven't tried to see which one goes bad first, but honestly, there is almost no air exposure for my beer post fermentation. I was working on that before the LODO stuff came out. Spund, close transfer, bottle with bottle filler after flushing the bottles with co2. 

And mchrispen, for what it's worth, I've done a split batch between a batch pitched immediatley after chilling to pitching temps, and a batch that sat for 12 hours. Couldn't tell the difference. 




Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by Matt

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