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You are here: Home --> Forum Home --> Brewing Forum --> Brewing Discussion --> Question on water chemistry for pale beers

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testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


Some of you know that I've convinced myself that water chemistry was directly responsible for an "awkward" flavor in my super pale beers. Specifically I feel like I narrowed it down to pH by brewing a pilsner with my Pilsn-esque water and only adding acid and that beer did not have the awkward flavor.


Well, throw a new wrench in the gears.


https://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/3fv5u6/whats_your_favourite_simple_recipe/ctuq5j8?context=4


So one of the many super pale beers I brewed that had that awkward flavor had a malt bill of 100% briess pale ale malt, which is what HarkJohnny uses in that beer. He doesn't adjust his water or measure pH. I threw that bill in brewersfriend and put in a Cincinatti water profile and it came up with pH 5.74. If I put my water profile in there I get pH 5.7. HarkJohnny's beer won a BOS, which I seriously doubt any of my awkward flavor beers would have done, even if they were perfect recipes, etc. That awkward flavor, although hard to taste for a lot of people (I seem to be the only one of my family or friends who can taste it), surely would knock any of my beers out of contention for BOS.


Anyone have ideas how to reconcile these competing ideas? Maybe the Ardennes yeast covers up that flavor, or otherwise drops pH farther/lower than the yeasts I was using? Perhaps it's an either/or thing? Minerals will kill that awkward flavor OR lower pH will kill the awkward flavor?


I feel like some 1 gallon test batches of this beer with some varying minerals and pH levels might be in order. I really want to try this recipe, it's so intriguing with it's simplicity, but apparent complexity and harmony of flavors.


PS. I know describing this flavor simply as 'awkward' isn't very helpful, but I honestly don't know how to describe it. It's kind of in the malt profile a bit, like mishroomy or grainy. Maybe husk-y? Mainly in the finish. Just something throwing the balance and finish off ever so slightly. Kind of lingers in the aftertaste too.


3




Posted 34 days ago.

rayfound
Charter Member
Riverside, CA
313 Posts


Well, I don't know man. Mushroom or grainy would make me think like, stale malts or something. Well, grainy is a flavor I really like, that I get most strongly from pils-based beers when fresh. But mushrooms? blegh... 

I'm stumped too. 
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Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


Ray, it wasn't a pils type graininess. More like dirt or earthy graininess. Mushroomy, maybe, I don't know. It was so subtle...I really have had a hard time describing it. These descriptors are grasping at straws.

I'm beginning to think now that maybe I was extracting an extremely small amount of tannin from the grain with a high pH sparge. HarkJohnny's efficiency is low for that amount of grain, so I wonder if he's doing no sparge and that kept him from getting any tannin extraction. I've asked, so interested to hear what he says.

That seems like a plausible and likely explanation.

It would also explain possibly why my wheat beer has never been affected by this despite mashing it at 6.0 pH. There just isn't enough husk in there to extract above threshold tannin from.

Well...now I have a theory. I'm really interested to see how this next batch of wheat beer comes out. I'm trying to get back to the original magic and win my crowd pleaser award again.

Any ideas for how I might collect some husks and then steep in high pH super hot water to extract tannins and then I could dose a beer and see if that was the flavor I was picking up? Maybe put some grain in a blender and then sift out the powder and hopefully the husk will be big enough that it will stay in the sieve?
2




Posted 34 days ago.

rayfound
Charter Member
Riverside, CA
313 Posts


Use spent grain. you'll have washed most of the endosperm out, so what is left is what is generally accepted to contain tannins. 
2




Posted 34 days ago.

KidMoxie
Charter Member
San Elijo Hills, CA
405 Posts


You mill your own grain right? I wonder if HarkJohnny also does. One thought is that maybe you're shredding your husks when you mill and maybe HarkJohnny isn't? That would be consistent with your husk tannin theory.

Why don't you just acidify your beers?
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Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


I do mill my own now, but this flavor happened before I milled my own and after.

I do acidify my beers now. I think I've eliminated the problem, but I think I want to try HarkJohnny's recipe, so when I asked him about water and he said he didn't do anything, I don't want to make the beer acidic and ruin the flavor, but I also don't want to run into my old nemesis "awkward flavor"

So I'm just kind of mentally thinking it all through.

Spent grain is a good idea.
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Posted 34 days ago.

ercousin
Charter Member
Toronto, Canada
77 Posts


Dan, do you measure pH or just do it theoretically? Because I find that I always need way more acid than the software predicts.

In my experience I sometimes get flat flavour expression in beers with too high pH, aka too much residual alkalinity. Most of the brewing water calculators are garbage at predicting mash pH because all they do is take into account malt colour and select base/crystal/roast. Wheat malt, flaked oats, etc... is entered as a base malt, pilsner and 2 row are both entered as 2L-base even though they are different cultivars of barley. I discussed this with John Palmer when he was signing my book at NHC and he agreed that software does a poor job of predicting pH and the best way to do it is the brew the same beer multiple times and measure pH throughout until you understand how much a certain grain bill acidifies the mash on it's own, the fine tune with acid.

For example I've found that when I use G&P 2 Row (local domestic) my mash pH can be as much as 0.3-0.5 pH high compared to the predicted number by Bru'n Water. However, when I use Munton's Pearl the measured value is within 0.1 pH of the predicted. I imagine this varies quite a bit depending on base malt. I also find Pilsner to be much higher than predicted, usually 0.2-0.4 pH high.
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Posted 34 days ago.

Necropaw
Charter Member
Central WI
608 Posts


I really need to buy a pH meter one of these days...

For most of my pale ales (especially when i do no sparge) ive been adding a bit of acid malt as a guess, but its been just that....a guess.
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Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


I rarely measure pH. I don't like calibrating my meter. I'll have it out Sunday though. I want to skate right down 5.9 pH this time if at all possible.

Brewers friend actually does take into consideration the specific L rating of the particular grain. Now, if you look at Kai's charts, you'll see that it's still an inexact science, and wheat malt lowers pH less than the equivalent color barley malt.

I don't think my mash pH has ever been too low, so what you are saying makes sense. If I'm having to make a correction it's going in the "add more acid" direction.
2




Posted 34 days ago.

rayfound
Charter Member
Riverside, CA
313 Posts


The two batches I have used my pH meter, I have been dead on Brun water calcs. I start with RO + build with salts, so I have a really well known starting water. 
2




Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


What color were the beers?


2




Posted 34 days ago.

rayfound
Charter Member
Riverside, CA
313 Posts


IPA and Kolsch. So both fairly pale. 
2




Posted 34 days ago.

Matt
Charter Member
Normal, IL
341 Posts


I do the same thing as Ray. Ro water and build a profile with salts, after five batches I stopped checking pH. Should probably start again jut to verify.
2




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


I use tap water which tends to vary a bit, so I absolutely check my pH.  Luckily, it's easy to calibrate my meter.  :)
2




Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


It's not difficult to calibrate my meter. It's a pain. Calibration solution is expensive.


2




Posted 34 days ago.

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