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You are here: Home --> Forum Home --> Brewing Forum --> Brewing Discussion --> Anyone check out the March/April Zymurgy water article

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uberg33k
Charter Member
The Internet
314 Posts


Brungard really flips water chemistry around with this one. Thoughts?



Posted 34 days ago.

vinpaysdoc
Charter Member
High Point, NC
321 Posts


Talking about Calcium:

It improves wort runoff
from the lauter tun

Someone wanna explain this for me?



Oh, and thanks for nudging me off the fence to join...





Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by vinpaysdoc

blur_yo_face
Houston, Tx
161 Posts


haven't read the article.. but doesn't calcium build-up prevent flow? I'd like an explanation as well..



Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


Not sure about that statement on calcium... never heard that one before. I know it is a co-factor for phytase and amylase, but not sure at what level that impacts lautering besides good starch conversion and some oxylates that seem to bind up tannins and silicas when forming and precipitating. There is also the starch gelatinization issue - but that seems to be mostly temperature based.

The rest is very consistent with Martin's advice on HBT and AHA forums. Essentially - use everything in your toolbox for flavor; fear alkalinity and not magnesium and sodium, but use them in moderation.

Full disclosure: I worked with Martin on the walk throughs on my blog and he consulted with me on choosing a high-flow RO system without buying one of the big commercial skids. He is also the coach on a couple of AHA Research Funded experiments I am working on.




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


So looked this up... there is a reference:

Handbook of Brewing, Second Edition

Fergus G. Priest, ‎Graham G. Stewart - 2006 - ‎Technology & Engineering
... judicious control of calcium content allows some measure of control on mash ... wort runoff rate can be significantly increased as a consequence of improved ...

Context implies that by using 200 mg/L to decrease mash pH from 5.5 to 5.2, runoff rates are increased, higher levels of extract, FAN and TSN (soluble Nitrogen) are achieved.

While I think the implication is pH helps the run off - certainly the calcium helps to drive the FAN / TSN levels in the phosphate reactions.





Posted 34 days ago.

vinpaysdoc
Charter Member
High Point, NC
321 Posts


Interesting article.

The concept of adding all your calcium to the mash for lagers makes some sense to me if you want lower calcium levels for lager yeast. Calcium for conversion, then allow the sparge to dilute it.

Any clue about how much Magnesium to add to starter wort? I guess it depends on the level in the water used. Matt, you adding Epsom Salts to your starters?

Looks like Magnesium's back on the menu boys....... (yeah, so I see why you've got it in your Pale Profile Matt)




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


I seriously recommend doing taste experiments for yourself... it was eye opening for me. I really have embraced the culinary/flavor aspect and leaned on good mash pH to ensure conversion and other benefits.

I think that additional magnesium or calcium isn't needed in a starter as there is adequate available in extract or malt. But there is some evidence that higher levels of magnesium can encourage rapid yeast growth... but I didn't see any data on resulting viability. I would want to make sure there is adequate nutrition to ensure that the biomass is viable and healthy. We want consistent growth with the least pressure on mutation.

Since I use RO water - I do add a very tiny bit of salts to the water when I rehydrate (usually from my liquor prep). Allegedly DI and RO water can cause osmotic pressure issues in rehydration if there is not adequate mineralization and cause the cellular walls to collapse... a little sodium chloride would work just as well.




Posted 34 days ago.

uberg33k
Charter Member
The Internet
314 Posts


> It improves wort runoff from the lauter tun

There's a myriad of reasons for that, but let's talk about the some of the main points.

* Calcium as a co-factor.  Let's go back to my post about enzymes immaculatebrewery.com/basic-molecular... and consider the quaternary and tertiary structure a bit.  An enzyme is like a spring that's all twisted up, right?  Heat makes that spring untwist or what we call de-natures the enzyme.  When calcium is added, it's like a sticky ball of duct tape thrown in the middle of the twisted spring.  It helps the enzyme resist the urge to unwind and allows it to be active for longer.  The more activity you can get out of your enzymes before they break down, the more they can do to liquefy gelatinized  starch thereby lowering mash viscosity.  LESS GUMMY = MO' BETTA RUNOFF

* Calcium as a pH adjustment.  There's phytin in your malt.  At a certain temperature range (cleverly know as the acid rest) phytase will break down phytin into calcium/magnesium phosphate and phytic acid.  Acid will lower the pH, which help the enzymes work more effectively.  Calcium as a co-factor applies to phytase as well, so the more that's present, the more it's insulated the enzyme is from heat degredation. So now you have the synergistic effect of longer enzyme lifespan and more efficient enzyme work.  GOOD PH = HARD WORKIN' ENZYMES

* Calcium as a lauter aid.  This goes hand in hand with the above point.  If your pH is proper, it not only helps get the stuff you want out (sugary wort) but it helps prevent the release of silica and tannins.  For those substances to be released, it means a breakdown of your hull material.  Degredation of hulls means poor lauterability. There's also the precipitation of oxilates.  Oxilates (beer stone) sedimentation in your wort would provide more surfaces to grab and hold small bits of crud.  BETTA FILTERS = BETTA RUNOFFS

The points that Martin makes that I find interesting it that the adjustment of calcium and magnesium at different points of the brewing process could be beneficial.  This is something I've wondered aloud before (why do we only adjust pH and salts in mash and not in kettle or bottle) and I was basically told to stop talking.  I also think it's interesting he's broaching the concept of a Mg:Ca ratio for beers and that certain styles might benefit from different ratios (seemingly lagers and hefe need more Mg and English styles need more Ca).  The point he falls down on is describing what those ratios would be and how to figure out how much of a contribution malt is adding.

> I think that additional magnesium or calcium isn't needed in a starter as there is adequate available in extract or malt. 

I'm assuming you didn't read the article because that's the opposite of what Martin is suggesting.  One idea he floats in the article is front loading your starter with Mg to supercharge the yeast and allow for less Mg additions in the mash, thereby having less flavor impacts.

He also seems to be suggesting to use less Ca and Mg than your SO4:Cl2 might call for.

Finally, there's some wording in part of the article that seems to suggest more Mg (or more accurately, a higher Mg:Ca ratio) would lead to a cleaner fermentation.  I think that would be really important in big beers and trying to keep fusels to a minimum.




Posted 34 days ago.

ingoogni
nl
314 Posts


Have not read the article. During a brew I have three moments of pH measurement and if needed pH adjustment. ~15 minutes into the mash, end mash and end of boil. Adjustment is done with Ca2+ up to a level of about 150 mg/l. Sparge water is adjusted with lactic acid to the desired pH at the start of boil (5.2). Never adjusted sparge water with Ca2+ .

Adding Mg to the starter instead of to the wort is a good one, if you need Mg at all. I'm not convinced of the latter, unless you use RO water. The water here has 9 mg/l. Adding it to a starter is the same as what I do with all yeast nutrients and zinc, estimate what would be needed for the total amount of wort and put it in the starter. The goal is a yeast that can finish a beer without any extra additions, not even oxygen.

I would not go so far to think in Mg:Ca ratio's. Keep them separate.




Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by ingoogni

uberg33k
Charter Member
The Internet
314 Posts


Not my words, but according to the article...

"At a Mg to Ca ratio of 0.1, growth was impeded
0.35 to 0.5, lag was extended
A ratio of 1.8 (typical of malt wort) yeast growth was rapid."

Normally I might agree with you, but this is Martin Brungard and the references at the end of the article take up an entire page.  He's put some research into this and it seems to bear some looking into.




Posted 34 days ago.

uberg33k
Charter Member
The Internet
314 Posts


I also get the impression that the point isn't so much to dump more Mg in your mash, but to add less Ca so it doesn't have as much of an impact on yeast development.



Posted 34 days ago.

vinpaysdoc
Charter Member
High Point, NC
321 Posts


Gary, thanks for the lesson. You got that on Powerpoint yet? If folks didn't know you better, they might think you asked the question so you could give the seminar....;-)   Keep teachin' it brother.  Oh, and thanks for bringing it up so I could get off my arse and join AHA.

Several good points to take home from the article:

Apparently we need to treat Ale yeast and Lager yeast a little differently with regards to water profiles. Lagers with relatively little Calcium and Ales with more. Also, adding Calcium only to the mash for all the benefits so eloquently listed above and then diluting the concentration by keeping them out of the sparge water in specific cases (lagers) is an interesting application of the knowledge.

Martin also seems to favor the use of Magnesium to accentuate the bitterness of hops in appropriate styles like Pales and IPAs. I've started using Matt's Pale Profile for the time being.

Starters. So far, I've simply been adding DAP as a yeast nutrient for my starters. Today, I added a smidge of Epsom Salt. Any of you folks go to the trouble to add Zinc as well? 




Posted 34 days ago.

uberg33k
Charter Member
The Internet
314 Posts


There's zinc in Servomyces and Wyeast Yeast Nutrient.  I use the Wyeast stuff because it's cheap(er).



Posted 34 days ago.

vinpaysdoc
Charter Member
High Point, NC
321 Posts


Yeah, I have started using Servomyces in bigger brews, but, it's too costly for me to use in starters. Wyeast nutrient, eh?





Posted 34 days ago.

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