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You are here: Home --> Forum Home --> Brewing Forum --> Recipe Discussion --> Help with a Belgian Witbier

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mtl-mike
Montreal, QC, CAN
3 Posts


Hey all! I am relatively new to homebrewing and this will be only my 5th batch and the first in which I am trying to design a recipe. I've always enjoyed a good crisp refreshing wheat beer and I feel like this a type i'd like to make my "go to" brew!

I have a few questions in regards to brewing with wheat and the different types available for brewing. I have done some reading of various recipes and posts online but there seems to be some conflicting information so I'm trying to make heads and tails of it all.

I'll be doing a 2.5 Gal batch using BIAB.

Grain bill:
- 47.5% Pilsner Malt
- 47.5% Red Wheat (flaked)
- 5% Flaked Oats

75 min Mash

90 min boil

Additions:
0.5 oz Hallertau (2.70%) 90 Min
0.25 oz Saaz (3.00%) 5 min
0.25 oz Crushed Corriander - 5 min
Orange Peel (dried) of 3 fresh sweet oranges - 5 min

Yeast - Wyeast 3944 - Belgian Witbier

OG: 1.051
FG: 1.014
ABV: 4.78%
IBUs: 12
SRM: 4

So here are a few of the questions that I have:

- So I figure that with my lack of experience it's probably best to stay away from raw wheat as is classic for this style, however I understand that flaked wheat can be used in its place. I have also seen "torrified wheat" which also claims it can be used instead of raw wheat in 
Belgian Witbiers. Any thoughts about what is the best way to proceed? I'm leaning towards Flaked right now.

- When I looked up flaked wheat and saw the Breiss product info it says that it can be used for up to 40% of the total grist. Should I stick to this 40%? Is it okay to go over as I have above? I figure I don't need to worry about a stuck sparge/adding rice hulls since I am doing BIAB. Also the BJCP style guide says typically the grains are split 50/50 raw wheat and pilsner malt. Do I limit myself to 40% wheat and if so, do I add more Pilsner and just use the flaked oats as 10% (so 50% pils, 40% flaked wheat, 10% flaked oats)? Or should I keep the same ratio of Wheat to Pils.

- It also says that I do not need to mill the wheat flakes/oat flakes, however you can if its the easiest means of adding it to the mash. What would be recommended considering I am doing BiAB? To mill, or not to mill..

- I'll also have heard mention of a protein rest. Do I need to worry about one? Is this something that would be done if I was using raw wheat?

Thanks for the help and feel free to comment on anything else that comes to mind!




Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by mtl-mike

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


Don't mill these, whether you are doing BIAB or not.  I honestly would skip the oats - that much wheat is going to give you more than enough mouthfeel, body, etc. 

I would be very careful using that much flaked wheat, as you are asking for a massively sticky mess.  Note that flaked wheat has no diastatic power, and has to be mashed with base grain to get conversion.  Of course, you have plenty of pils for this.

If I were you, I'd do, say, 50% pilsner, 40% malted wheat, 10% flaked wheat if you are wanting to have a true 50/50 split. 






Posted 34 days ago.

ingoogni
nl
314 Posts


The grist is fine as it is with wheat flakes. Oats should be there otherwise it's not a white beer (Wit) but a yellow beer. The oats make the difference in that.

Mash in at 52°C and keep it there for some 10 minutes. It is needed to get a maximum of FAN out of the Pilsner malt, you'll get very little FAN out of unmalted grains. Your yeast will be grateful for that.

--

A traditional Wit was made with ~ 55% Wheat, some oats, occasionaly some buckwheat and a pale barley malt (Pils), boiled for 90 minutes and had ~115g hops per 100 liter, the beer was matured for a few weeks and was drunk within a year.

A yellow beer had ~ 60% wheat and the rest a pale barley malt (pils), 6 hour boil, ~400g hops / 100 l and was matured for 2-4 years (think lambic), could be kept for 4 up to 50 years.

A Brown beer had ~50% wheat and the rest barley malt, was boiled very long up to 14 hours. ~400 g/100l hops. Maturation 0,5 to 1 year, keeping time up to 3 years.




Posted 34 days ago.

uberg33k
Charter Member
The Internet
314 Posts


I'm with ingooni here.  I'm sorry to say this, but you're dead wrong homebrewdad.  I agree that you don't need to mill flaked oats or wheat, that's a waste of time.  However, wit is traditionally ~50% unmalted grain and it's some portion of wheat and oat.  I use 50% pils, 40% flaked wheat, 10% flaked oats, but to each his own.  The oats do matter and you can taste the difference.  Even more than the spices, I think it's what really separates a wit from a hefe.

The part of the recipe I see a problem with is the spicing.  

  • First, I'd double check your coriander.  There's two types of coriander out there; "regular"/European and Indian.  The "regular"/European tends to taste a little soapy.  It's a characteristic that will mellow out with bottle aging, but when it's young ... bleh.  The Indian coriander tends to taste more citrusy and not have as much soap. 
  • What does "zest of 3 oranges" really mean?  I think you need to quantify that as a weight.  Granted, you won't know how much zest you can get from each orange, but you need to know when to stop.  If you're targeting 0.5oz and you can get that from 2 oranges, then you don't need to zest the third.  I want to say I used 0.5oz of zest, but I don't have my notes in front of me.
  • Chamomile.  You want to add a little chamomile to your wit.  It's like the secret weapon of wit.  It adds a subtle enough flavor that you can't pick it out directly, but it's a pleasant complexity that complements hops like Saaz.
If you're in the US, you can get excellent spices from https://www.worldspice.com/




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


Two against one, I bow to the collective wisdom.  Thanks for the education, gentlemen.



Posted 34 days ago.

mtl-mike
Montreal, QC, CAN
3 Posts


Thank you all for the feedback, much appreciated!

Ingoogni - thanks for the the mashing tip, I wasn't aware that this could be beneficial.

Uberg33k - I like the proposed grist. I think I will move forward with a 50/40/10 split. I also appreciate the spicing advice, I had read up on some of these items but you clarified some questions I had about them. And yes, for the oranges I will just try and get 0.5oz of zest, only reason I wrote 3 oranges is I was estimating. I have a box of some beautiful looking oranges here that I can't help but want to toss in my boil. Better than the stuff you can buy at your LHBS! I read that the oils can reduce your head retention so I'll make sure I dry them out before using.

I think I will need several batches to tackle all the complexities and find the right balance, excited to get witbier #1 going soon :)




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


Can I toss in another suggestion?

In "Brewing with Wheat" the primary constituent is raw un-malted wheat in witbiers. There is an identifiable flavor difference that is being lost when LHBS can sell malts and flaked wheats at a higher margin than good old raw wheat berries. The issue is really that it requires a cereal mash, which can be done before hand or as a decotion like step to raise temperatures. My best witbiers use between 5-10% raw wheat berries which I crack and cook hard on the stove. I let this become basically a thick porridge turned dough, then remove from the heat and let cool to under 160 F. I then fold in about 10% by weight either 6-row (better) or 2-row (adequate) crushed and fold this in. As you work that dough, it will start to liquify and loosen, where the enzymes in the base malt really break down the proteins and starches. You might need a little additional water to make the dough more workable, but not much. I try to bring this to about the same infusion temperature that the rest of the malts will rest at - and then add it directly right after grain in and stir very well.

The oats help to add some silkiness to body of the witbier and I think add some fluffier big bubbles into the head. I use flaked oats, but a little toast on them can also add some big flavor... but just a bit of toast or the flavor goes wrong.




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


Uberg33k asked me how I mill the raw wheat berries.

I have tried two ways:
  1. With a blender. This took a bit of work and is clumsy. Plus the amount of flour generated is a bit much. This got tipped into a pot and cooked down - which quickly took on a dough like character. You have to go easy on the heat as like porridge, it can burn.
  2. Soaked for several hours in cold water, drained and then milled. The berries will swell up a good bit. I expect you can oversoak and just have mush. Mine went in the fridge for like 4 hours and came out fat, but still friable on the interior. Same drill - boiled this up and it made a more porridge like consistency that started to gel together.
As mentioned - the starchy wheat should be cooled to under 160F so that the enzymes in the milled 2-row can work their magic. A little water (very little) maybe needed to help cut in the dry malt, but the porridge will quickly liquify. 

Next round, I plan to pressure cook the berries into mush, cool them and add the 6-row. Will see.

One other tip - I used raw wheat berries from the grocery and assume they were dried red wheat. However, apparently you can occasionally find white wheat at feedstores or even some bakeries. This should be softer and have a higher moisture content and be more easily milled as it is used a lot for flour. You may even find durum berries which would have a more distinct finer nut like flavor.




Posted 34 days ago.

mtl-mike
Montreal, QC, CAN
3 Posts


Thanks for the additional info! I think at this stage in the game those techniques might be a little much for me, I rather focus on the basics and get my brewing skills up to par. This could be very interesting down the line for me, I'll make sure I save this! 

Thanks




Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by mtl-mike

ingoogni
nl
314 Posts


for the berries a manual disc mill (Corona, Porkeret etc.) works well, or a mill with stone on the coarsest setting.






Posted 34 days ago.

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